3rd Jun 2009, 11:54
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steven@carsurvey.org
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Could the two previous commenters please take a deep breath and calm down a little.
Things are getting too personal here, especially since I suspect you agree on many things (like buying American).
Discussion is fine, but this is in the end an Internet forum, where unless I enforce very strict editorial control, there are going to be people and arguments that you disagree with, or just plain think are misinformed.
If you make your point and you end up in an argument with what seems to be the same few people, it's probably the case that the best thing you can do is move on, having said your piece (once or twice is probably enough). Likewise if you start to take a personal dislike to other commenters. Far more heat is likely being generated than light in those cases. The long comment threads only happen when there are willing participants on both sides.
The above isn't a set of rules that I'm setting down, just some advice to perhaps make the experience of using the site more pleasant.
Steven Jackson
steven@carsurvey.org
3rd Jun 2009, 13:08
It is amazing that there are such strong feelings regarding imports and domestics here in the USA, especially when it seems that all vehicles are global in one way or another.
Please remember that GM, Ford & Chrysler do have operations beyond the borders of the United States, and they also have participated in many joint ventures with foreign automakers, and in many cases owned a percentage of these companies.
Also, please remember that many of those Fords, Chevy's and Chryslers that you drive ARE built beyond the borders of the USA - Canada & Mexico seems to be a favorite place for the "Big Three" to build factories. At the same time these "foreign" automakers have been building more & more vehicles in this country.
I frequently see the argument that although these companies are employing Americans to build their cars, to many people that doesn't matter because they argue "the profits are going out of this country". Doesn't this argument cut both ways?
One final question to ponder - With GM selling off many of their brands, the one perhaps most associated with the USA, mom, apple pie, the freedom to drive wherever and whatever you want - Hummer, is being sold to a Chinese company.
This obviously is helping GM survive, but other than Jeep what other brand screams patriotism?
What will all of this anti-import people say to that?
My feeling is that because this is the United States of America, American's should have the right to decide for themselves what that want to drive. How can driving a Toyota built in this country be any less patriotic than driving a Canadian Chevy? American corporations buy from foreign companies, and out-source overseas, don't they?
(In case you are wondering - I own one domestic vehicle built in Ohio, and an import which is owned by GM)
4th Jun 2009, 10:47
It's been stated repeatedly, and apparently needs to continue being stated: The U.S. auto industry employs 91% of all auto-related workers in the U.S. In addition, they have very heavy involvement in other very important sectors of the U.S. economy. Regardless of where GM, Ford and Chrysler sell cars, they are STILL a U.S. company providing jobs for U.S. AND foreign citizens. Yes, Japanese companies have plants here. Overall they employ only 9% of the entire auto-related work force in the U.S. The profits from the sales of Japanese cars goes to Japan, not the U.S.
Any time a U.S. citizen purchases a product from a foreign-owned company, he or she is taking jobs away from American citizens. If Americans would return to even a modest degree of patriotism our economy would recover very quickly. Because a foreign company employs 9% of the people in that industry in this country it basically means that buying from them hurts 91% of our people. That is a pretty good argument for supporting American industry. I will continue driving this point home as long I keep seeing comments stating that buying from foreign companies doesn't matter. It DOES matter to the 91% who work for American auto makers.
2nd Jun 2009, 16:45
12:55.
I see... EVERYTHING is evidence that you are right. If I DID remember, it would be proof. If I didn't... gosh it COULDN'T just be because I didn't see it or just misplaced it in my memory... it MUST be because I saw it and it worked really, really good. THAT WAY YOU CAN BE RIGHT NO MATTER WHAT! This is particularly funny because I think that Tauruses are pretty good cars. Fusions are even better.
Your last post carried no proofs. You simply reasserted your position. Then you went about discrediting anyone who might disagree based on a scenario that is a total fabrication of possible but unproven points. I could likewise claim that YOU are a victim of ads that you don't remember. That your preoccupation with domestic cars is strictly based on prejudice... not facts. I COULD say that I'm a mechanic. I COULD claim to be a therapist. Heck I could claim to be anything at all in an effort to further my point.
BUT IT WOULD BE UNFAIR. IT WOULD ALSO BE UNTRUE. Perhaps I'm breaking the seminal rule of blogging... the truth puts me at a disadvantage. My claims aren't mathematically impossible (or at least unlikely). They aren't inconsistent. They aren't positioned like a pundit's would be. I don't take a hard position and I am perfectly willing to admit my human tendency toward inaccuracy. BUT I NEED PROOF.
You say that I'm a victim of ad hype? Prove it.
You say that the surveys are flawed simply because there is a possible mechanism for such a thing. Prove it.
You suggest that I think that anything American workers make is crap. You'll have a really tough time proving that one. I own two American vehicles right now and wouldn't buy from the Japanese because American manufacturing needs customers.
I DO think that the Japanese EARNED their reputation the old fashioned way. Until you are able to prove otherwise, no amount of pseudopsychological conjecture will save your point.
The truth remains that you haven't presented us with anything outside of your own experience to back up your claims about Ford and GM long ago surpassing the imports. Ford is doing very well (a recent thing). GM still has a ways to go. This is based on surveys taken in various manners, by different organizations. My own experience furthers the data. BUT I WILL STILL ONLY BUY AMERICAN.
Finally, you will no doubt be thrilled to hear that I will no longer argue with you. I've thoroughly repudiated all of your points on other threads only to see you resurrect them elsewhere. There is no point. You are busily destroying this site's value. For you and others this is all about rhetoric, not information. If someone posts some information about their Japanese vehicle, you either do an "I told you so" or a "mine is better" response. You and others sit on here repeating the same old worn out canards. You don't prove your points; You simply repeat them. So I suspect that many will do (and have done) what I now choose to do and leave you to yourself.