9th Feb 2009, 17:34
"Most enthusiasts don't cite those parameters as important. All of those I've known and read are primarily concerned with the aspects of performance. Power, handling, ergonomics, materials, and stopping power are all I ever hear about. In fact I suspect the Corvette (for example) wouldn't fall into the "sensible" category at all. But where do I sign up for some senseless fun? :) "
My wealthy late brother was an avid car enthusiast, as am I. Most of the time he had enough cars to fill his 4-car garage and leave 2 or 3 sitting in the drive. I suppose we both viewed "quality" differently than the average snooty rich person, but neither of us would regard an unreliable vehicle as "high quality", whether it had a Mercedes tri-star or a Chevy bowtie.
Paying $40,000 more for bragging rights is a bit like high-school jock mentality. And WHAT are you getting to brag about?? Our Mustang GT's would blow most beemers and Mercedes away.
Of the great number of cars my brother and I have owned over the years, the highest "fun factor" has been with vehicles such as the Dodge Daytona Turbo, Ford Mustang GT and our vintage Dodge Challenger and Charger R/T. We didn't find the 5-series beemers OR the C-class Mercedes to be either better performing, more reliable OR anymore "fun". Just ludicrously expensive.
Even though I wouldn't buy a car made by a foreign company now due to the need to support our own industry, I have to say the V-6 Accords I've driven equal the performance of many BMW's and Mercedes (ESPECIALLY Mercedes) models.
10th Feb 2009, 01:31
Most people associate quality and "reliability" with not having problems with car interiors like door knobs that fall off, trim pieces that come loose, rear view windows that stay pointed like you want. The appearance of quality goes a long way to keeping customers happy even when there are significant real mechanical problems.
Back 20 years ago, the domestics were doing poor jobs on this kind of stuff and Toyota and Honda kicked Detroits butt by paying attention to those kinds of details. One problem was that the Big Three were relying on complaints that came up through the dealerships to identify problems. Around about the early 1990's they started doing more direct customer research, and they were astonished to find out how bad they were building their cars. They found out people did not take cars back to dealerships to get little problems fixed. People just got angry and vowed to never buy domestics again. And when there were actual mechanical problems, they were much less forgiving if they felt like the vehicle they had was junk because of all the little problems they had.
I remember I had a three year old 1985 Oldsmobile Cutlass that I made of list of all the things that were broken. It had about 40 items. Filled up a whole page in a new fangled thing called a Lotus 123 spreadsheet. Stuff like the button on transmissions shift lever stuck in, had to re-tighten screws on visor every three months or it would fall off the headliner, knobs on window handle that kept coming unscrewed, wind noise, hood latch that stopped working, seam in the seat that rubbed right on a vertebrae of my spine, etc. But for the five years I owned that car, there never was an actual real mechanical problem with steering, engine, brakes etc. I kind of felt like it was a piece of junk though. Comfortable in a straight line, but steered like a cow.
Honda and Toyota did things better and established their reputation for better built, better quality cars. Personally, I stuck with domestics and have seen a steady improvement in quality. The complaint list I have on my Mercury Sable currently has zero items on it. I can understand those people who gave up on domestics. I almost did. But for me, there really is no improving on having a four year old car that has required zero repairs and not even any little problems. I am kind of confused about how people can get all worked up about which is better, foreign or domestic, when now pretty much even "bad" cars are really good.
10th Feb 2009, 08:35
True enough. However the response has been almost as broad as the provocation. The inevitable result is an nuh uh, yuh huh, nuh uh, yuh huh type of thread. Both sides are painting with an over-broad brush. That size of "brush" guarantees that both sides are wrong to one extent or another.
10th Feb 2009, 09:31
And that's exactly what reliability surveys (much maligned by some on this and other threads) are starting to show. You don't have to live in denial to own an American made vehicle any more.
I don't think that this is about patriotism either. For years the Dodge, Chevy, Ford guys argued (just like this) over whose vehicles were better. Then Toyota came on the scene and perhaps unwittingly butted in on the family argument. As is the case with such things, they all turned on the "outsider"...and have been having a mud-slingin' hootenanny ever since. This isn't about quality, reliability, performance, or even patriotism (in the strictest sense). It's about tradition, and the maintenance of the status-quo. Thankfully the vehicles they drive and love are pretty darn good. Its just that this argument has been going on for decades. It ain't gonna cool down now just because everyone makes a pretty decent vehicle. In fact, a tenuous argument is often the one with the most passion and magnanimity. So the argument rages on. So just sit back, grab some pop-corn, and enjoy the ride. :)
12th Feb 2009, 09:47
People complain about those who buy "foreign" vehicles. Many are not foreign but carry foreign names. The car I am purchasing next year, the Nissan Maxima is roughly 55% US/Canadian parts and 20-25% Japanese, which is only the transmission. So even though I am "buying foreign" I am more-so "buying American" simply because of the content of the vehicle and country of production.
9th Feb 2009, 11:56
"None of our non-domestics (including BMW or Mercedes) ever impressed us as being remotely as durable, sensible or more reliable mechanically than ANY domestic."
Most enthusiasts don't cite those parameters as important. All of those I've known and read are primarily concerned with the aspects of performance. Power, handling, ergonomics, materials, and stopping power are all I ever hear about. In fact I suspect the Corvette (for example) wouldn't fall into the "sensible" category at all. But where do I sign up for some senseless fun? :)
This argument over quality, etc. is pointless.
The domestic loving guys mostly attempt to invalidate any survey that in the past hasn't supported their preconceived notions or experiences with or regarding domestic vehicles. They are too myopic to realize their experience isn't necessarily representative.
The foreign lovers are ignoring the fact that most of the same surveys that some of them cite are saying that the Japanese are having trouble building good trucks. CR says that about the current Tundra and Titan. Truedelta says the same. That Toyota emblem doesn't MAKE the vehicle reliable. Nor does a Chevy bowtie.