14th Aug 2008, 16:01
A simple answer is that Honda are one of the best car manufacturers around, and if they could make a 3.0 litre that would fit in the S2000 and give as good fuel economy, power, weight (and so handling partially), then they probably would have done so already.
But as it is I don't understand why we are caught up on the hypothetical question anyway, as I was under the impression the S2000 was one of the best softtop cars out there, and punches way above its weight with Boxsters etc already. If Honda can use a 2.0 or 1.6 where other manufacturers would use a 2.0 turbo or a V6 then they will. If everyone thought that the Vtec engines were flawed for not having enough torque, then nobody would buy them, much less rave about them in car magazines, reviews, forums etc etc.
15th Aug 2008, 13:15
Having owned a Honda and finding it to be one of the most poorly built cars we ever owned, you certainly won't find any rave reviews about them from me. As for magazine reviews, etc., I have not the slightest confidence in them after having a personal experience with the real (and very shoddy) thing.
16th Aug 2008, 12:10
I don t know why you're obsessed with trying to knock the S2000? Whether you've been over taken by one and are bitter, I don t know, but you just keep on and on about a bigger engine. Why? - to try and ruin one of the best 2 seater convertibles on the market today?
To be honest, considering it's been on the market almost 10 years with that engine, you don't hear too many complaints, the car is one of if not the lightest in its class, even though you keep banging on about the"heavy engine", the car's only 1250kg, which for a roadster is very light.
You also mentioned it's gutless, how's a car producing 192bhp per ton gutless? It may only have 162 pounds of torque, but that's still more than most cars on the road, and if you really wanted in gear acceleration you just wouldn't buy a Honda vtec as it's not what they're about!
The fun in the vtec engine is letting the revs build and listening to one of the best sounds this side of a f1 car chime in at around 6000rpm. Also the 2.0 vtec is still used in japan, it's only the USA that have the 2.2 as it's all about size over there.
Clearly you don't like the way Hondas drive, but you're not gonna change anybodies mind, as when you buy a vtec engine you know what it does and you either love them or hate them!
16th Aug 2008, 13:21
And if you're so worried about a bigger engine, try the 3.2 litre vtec in the Honda NSX. Vtec, torque and one of the best handling cars ever made. If it's good enough for Ayrton Senna it's good enough for me.
17th Aug 2008, 12:15
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F22C1#F22C
Why are people pretending that I have something against Honda. My problem is with people chucking around BHP/l figures as if they mean anything. As I've said, BHP/engine weight is a much better indicator of the true performance capability of an engine. Who cares if you can get 240 BHP out of a 2.0L, when you can get it out of a 2.5L that weighs less, and gets as good, if not better MPG???
Some have hit the nail on the head. People only get a VTEC type engine because they like the way they drive. It's like a 2-stroke bike engine; flat as anything until you hit the power-band. However I can't see how anyone on Earth older than 17 would want that type of performance, instead of having more power over the entire rev range.
"even though you keep banging on about the 'heavy engine', the car's only 1250kg, which for a roadster is very light."
Honda S2000 - 1260KG
Porsche Boxster - 1250KG
BMW Z4 3.0l - 1290KG
So the S2000 holds no real weight advantage over its rivals, even though it has a smaller displacement engine, has lightweight alloy body panels, and is physically the smaller car.
Why do people think that the S2000's engine is any better than the Porsche's or BMW's?
18th Aug 2008, 11:47
On the newer models the S2000 is still the lightest of the 3! I don t think anybody actually said it's engine was better than BMW or Porsches, just that it was far superior to Rovers which is what you originally were saying!
You obviously don't like the vtec power delivery (that is if you've even ever driven one?) but many people do, and you'll find many over the age 17 as you'd struggle to get the insurance cover until early twenties. I couldn't really care less which is the better roadster, as I couldn't live with a 2 seater for every day use any way, and myself have always had the Type R variants! But the S2000 is the fastest and cheapest of the bunch!
You keep saying it's the engine's power to weight, but it's the total weight when mated to the car that matters - just look at the supercharged Ariel Atom with the Civic Type Rs k20 engine producing over 600 bhp per ton, and as a result it's one of the fastest road legal cars available today!
13th Aug 2008, 14:49
For a start, the 'MGZ180 is faster than a type R' comment wasn't from me.
Again people fail to understand my point, which is that bhp/l simply isn't important in any way to performance. Performance depends mainly on power and weight, not displacement.
I'm specifically talking about engines here, not cars. A blind man could see that Honda produce better cars now than Rover did.
Subconsciously people think that making more bhp/l means that you're making more power without a corresponding increase in engine weight over a 'normal' engine of the same displacement. With the Vtec and other VVTi engines this simply is not the case. The most advanced Vtec engine, the S2000's K20, weighs in at 158 KG!!! That's huge, more than many V6's. That is why I brought up the lightweight Rover K-series engines that, lb for lb, produce more power.
"And just because in your opinion you think the 2.2 Honda engine fitted in the S2000 is better than the 2.0, doesn't make it fact. We all know the Americans are used to driving round in 5 litre V8 cars just to pick up the shopping, this is the reason they installed a bigger engine in the s2000 for the American market, not because it is a better engine."
So why did they replace it in Japan as well, or do the Japanese not know a good car? You think Honda would replace the engine with a worse one?
So now the Vtec engines are better because they're more economical than similarly powered units??? Simply not true.
S2000, 240hp - 28MPG
Astra VXR, 240hp - 30 MPG
BMW 335, 301hp - 31MPG
...and so on.
Now before I get a load of replies from people thinking that I'm saying Honda are crap, I have to say I think Honda are a very good car manufacturer. I think the S2000 is a great car with a very good, if not exceptional, engine. I would rather Honda made the S2000 with a 3.0l 240hp engine though, I cannot see any advantage in having a highly tuned 2.0l 240hp buzz-box instead.