19th Sep 2010, 13:40

How about we start living within our means and stop expecting companies to continue to pay us for nothing after we stop working? Factory work is factory work. Nothing against it, but one should not expect to retire to the country club alongside the doctors and lawyers after serving their time there. I see so many people that drive junk cars, but have an iPhone or Blackberry, and they play their games on their Xbox. We have totally lost sight of doing the right thing and being responsible.

Anybody can retire without issue if they take their income and plan for the future in a reasonable way. It is your own choice what you do for a living, so make the best of it. To just think about the useless things you want today and never care for a second about what you'll need down the road is shortsighted. To expect such royalties for such mundane work is really crazy. It is not economically viable, which has been proven by the auto industry meltdown.

19th Sep 2010, 13:44

Okay, this has nothing to do with the point made that domestic cars aren't really any more domestic than the imports these days. Claims are made that buying domestic saves U.S. jobs, but the ongoing increase of outsourcing assembly line jobs makes this an impossibility. This has nothing to do with the love or hate of Canadians or Mexicans.

19th Sep 2010, 14:08

No, first and foremost I go by my actual experience. GM has made the worst cars I have ever owned period, plain and simple. I have never made it to 100K miles without major, major repairs on them. They just are not designed and built well. I have had many different imports and only one of them has given me any issues, a Nissan Maxima. Toyotas, Honda's, Subaru's and Saabs have all been flawless for me.

And imports are just about the same size these days if you want to buy a big one. I really like a mid sized car myself. In my experience, domestics are harder to deal on over imports. I have walked out on a few domestic deals only to walk into an import dealer and make a fair deal in minutes with no hassles. The last Honda Accord I bought in '08 was literally a 30 second deal. Car for invoice and 2.9% financing.... done. They sold so many cars, they didn't waste time going back and forth like the domestic dealers do.

I then bought an '09 Ford, and I walked in with numbers in hand for the deal I wanted. We started out $3K apart, and an hour and a half later they came to my price and I walked off paying $1 away from the payment I walked in with. I'm still not sure why I sat there and argued so long when I knew I was offering a good deal for both of us, but at least I finally got there. It was truly painful!

And thank you, I will keep buying what I like, no matter what the ratings companies or CR or even C&D says about it. None of them ever have offered up the cash for my repairs on the domestics I've owned, so why would I really care one way or another what they say about any car?

Imports have been much cheaper overall to own for me, as they just don't need any work done on them... in my experience. Do your maintenance and upkeep, and you're good to go... and go, and go.

Why would I go back to GM? If you had $1,000's in ridiculous low mileage repairs on more than one GM car, would you ever go back? I guess maybe you would, since you don't mind extra repair expenses for your domestics. I'd rather be getting where I am going on a daily basis, and not be on a first name basis with the Chevy dealer service manager.

19th Sep 2010, 14:18

Again with the Vette comparison. We are on a Camry thread here, so why would you go on about a Vette? Of course they are better, they cost 3 to over 5 times the price of the average Camry. They better be better! Really you could also say the Viper is better than an Accord too, but is it really necessary?

Specialty cars like the Viper and Vette make a poor example when commenting about a companies overall quality. They are built in different plants at much higher standards, which is why they are so expensive. If they built the Cobalt next to the Vette, then you could talk about it.

Also the Vette (and Viper too actually) are very limited in their usability, as they are 2 seaters and not suited well for day to day life of the average family. They are mainly weekend toys and not daily grind cars. Yes, I see them commuting to work every day, but try taking the kids to soccer or picking up groceries for a family of four in one of them!

19th Sep 2010, 23:48

"What does the incompetence of the domestic auto industry have to do with people's retirement?"

At the time of the GM bailout, it was widely reported in the press that pensions, job banks and health benefits that domestic companies paid made domestic cars cost $1400 more than their Toyota or Honda equivalents. My friend who is manager for one of the big three says the real figure was just over $2000 (also adding the cost of the single tier pay system).

This was part of the criticism the government leveled at GM for having an unsustainable business model.

Now with the restructuring, the difference is down to a few hundred dollars.

19th Sep 2010, 23:49

I have to say I'm in agreement with much of what 19:12 said. The world is changing, and few if anybody, myself included, can count on a pension, regardless of industry. It's a sign of the times, and the days of the benevolent company willing to pay you a decent wage, retirement, and everything else are gone. Instead we're in an era where all American workers will have to learn to compete on a global scale.

But in regards to "supporting American workers", well I can definitely point out specific people I know who either work or worked for such companies as Nissan, Toyota and any number of other foreign corporations in the US. One of the largest suppliers of automotive components is Bosch - a German firm - that supplies parts throughout the industry, including any number of Ford, GM, and Chrysler products. They have domestic operations in the US making many of those parts... but then again, I guess they are "foreign" and all. Your so-called "domestic" car is a mixed soup of foreign and domestic parts. Many of the most popular domestic cars are built on foreign platforms. Some of them are not only built on foreign platforms, but actually made in foreign countries like Mexico, Canada, and Germany using a whole slew of foreign parts.

This is a truly global industry. The new Buick Lacrosse has a powertrain developed in Germany. The interior was designed by the GM Shanghai studio. The exterior in Detroit. Components that make it are from far and wide. The Ford Fusion is made in Mexico using engine components from the US, Mexico and India.

But getting back to the people I know who work for Nissan and Toyota: These are American families making what's considered good wages for the region. They own houses and cars just like you. They send their kids to school. They save for retirement. They contribute to the US economy by consuming with the dollars they save from working for their so-called "foreign" companies.

So how are they any different than the same factory worker or even the interior designer or engineer working for a domestic company? Yes - the argument I've read on this site over and over again is that: "The profits stay in America." Really? For the past 6-7 years, all 3 automakers LOST billions of dollars per year. No profits were actually made. In fact, time and again we have had to pay for THEM, including most recently for GM. So much for that argument...

I get a feeling that those making the "I hate "foreign" cars" argument has little to do with mechanical merit. All I'll say is that I recently rented a 2010 Chevy Malibu on a business trip. I was actually looking forward to it because I'd read rave reviews about the car. After driving it, I can say that from my experience with it, that yes - GM has made vast improvements over their utterly boring, plasticy cars of the 90's. But they still have a ways to go. The car was sub-par on many levels, from its sluggish handling, still-plasticy interior, cheap rent materials for things like door handles and trunk lids, and so on.

I will say Ford is making some excellent product today. I'd even consider one of their new Fiestas. But the bottom line is that my choice has never been about where a product is made. It's about what is the BEST product I can buy.