29th Dec 2006, 09:02
Unfortunately, your arguments fall all over themselves.
1) You'll have to explain how your calculator shows that 17 mpg (a figure UNattainable with ethanol in an SUV) is better than 47 mpg (what my friend is getting ON AVERAGE in his Prius). Ethanol is more expensive to make and still relies heavily on foreign oil as your gas guzzling SUV is still not efficient by any standard.
2) You are sadly misinformed on ethanol and what it does to both mileage and engine wear. It is NOT simply replacing a few components. Ethanol wears out the engine significantly faster.
3) Investment in ethanol is a folly as even if we put 100% of our resources into its production it would still not be able to support what you are talking about. It is simply a government scam, backed up by the American manufacturers who can only build gas guzzlers.
4) You are comparing a full size SUV with a huge gas guzzling engine with the Prius. You need to compare the AVERAGE SUV 0 - 60. Otherwise I'll simply throw in the Tesla which has zero emissions, uses no gasoline, and goes 0 - 60 in 4.5 seconds. And even if we all drove Teslas their costs per mile would still be significantly less than ethanol-based cars when you factor in the energy needed to produce the electricity.
5) Your Escape argument was doomed from the start.
6) I guess I'm confused by your last remark since we are talking about OIL consumption, not consumer buying. And remember, you're the one promoting the Escape with the foreign engine.
29th Dec 2006, 15:51
"Ethanol is more expensive to make and still relies heavily on foriegn oil as your gas guzzling SUV is still not efficient by any standard."
Wow, as I have said about FIVE TIMES, the reason ethanol is more expensive to make then gas is because not enough investment has been made into it yet!!! As with anything, the price will come down once they start mass producing it and finding ways to make the process more efficient. And ethanol does not rely heavily on foriegn oil, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, if you have real proof otherwise, I'd like to hear it.
'2) You are sadly misinformed on ethanol and what it does to both mileage and engine wear. It is NOT simply replacing a few components. Ethanol wears out the engine significantly faster.'
I'm sadly misinformed? You have given no proof at all that ethanol increases engine wear, because it isn't true and if you had proof of that you would have stated it, so I doubt you have any.
'3) Investment in ethanol is a folly as even if we put 100% of our resources into its production it would still not be able to support what you are talking about. It is simply a government scam, backed up by the American manufacturers who can only build gas guzzlers.'
How do you know that if we put more resources into it, it wouldn't be a good alternative fuel? And do you have any proof at all that it's a 'government' scam? Because I think that's just another one of your outrageous assumptions.
'4) You are comparing a full size SUV with a huge gas guzzling engine with the Prius. You need to compare the AVERAGE SUV 0 - 60. Otherwise I'll simply throw in the Tesla which has zero emissions, uses no gasoline, and goes 0 - 60 in 4.5 seconds. And even if we all drove Teslas their costs per mile would still be significantly less than ethanol-based cars when you factor in the energy needed to produce the electricity.'
So American manufacturers can 'only' build gas guzzlers huh? How much do you even know about American manufacturers? Have you ever heard of a Ford Focus? How about a Chevy Cobalt? Or a Dodge Stratus? Chevy Aveo? Maybe a Chevy Malibu? Not enough?, how about the Neon, Escort, Vue Hybrid, PT Cruiser, Escape Hybrid, HHR, Most Saturn's in general, Ford Fusion, etc. So that argument of yours is out the window.
You said that a Prius was 'fast' by SUV standards. It's not, I can guarantee that because I've been in many, many SUV's two different Priuses and there is NO COMPARISON between SUV's (except maybe old clunker SUV's that are badly tuned) and Priuses performance wise. I'll be honest I don't know what a 'tesla' is, but I have a feeling it isn't a viable option, probably a one or two seater, something that will never be accepted, or the whole world would be driving nothing, but them. So why are we even talking about that, because it has no bearing on this discussion.
'5) Your Escape argument was doomed from the start.'
Frankly that comment makes no sense, what arguement? I said I like the Escape because it looks better then a Prius that's all, not an agruement just a matter of opinion, and judging from most of your statements, you are having a difficult time differentiating opinion from fact in your postings, as I have heard absolutely no proof for any of the things you've said.
'6) I guess I'm confused by your last remark since we are talking about OIL consumption, not consumer buying. And remember, you're the one promoting the Escape with the foreign engine.'
I guess I'm just wondering why you care so much about dependence on foriegn product when you are promoting mass purchase Toyota Priuses which are foreign products. Nice try of turning my argument back on me though! The engine in the Ford Escape is NOT foriegn, it is built by Ford, BUT the design is slightly similar to that of the Prius. The Escape is built in Kansas City. However, the Corolla is built in Canada and the USA! That's good. However the Prius is actually made in China! That could explain the bad quality interior, among other things.
28th Dec 2006, 23:01
"The Tahoe average mileage goes to about 8 mpg, meaning there is a greater demand for gasoline as a blend."
Yes, mileage does decline somewhat, but nowhere near that much (and increases horsepower, I believe). Also, I have a feeling that even using 15% gasoline in a vehicle that gets 17MPG would still be using less oil then someone driving a Prius getting 42MPG.
- 'The Tahoe engines wear out more quickly so therefore cost more to replace AND require MORE energy to produce the new engines.'
I don't know what you're talking about. All that needs to be done is change some of the components like rubber hoses etc., for the higher alchohol content. An ethanol engine will last just as long.
- 'Ethanol is barely sustainable in areas where it is sold, and it is simply impossible to create the amount needed to fuel the entire American driving public driving Tahoes.'
The only reason it isn't sustainable right now is because there hasn't been a big enough investment made in the technology yet! That would be like people 175 years ago saying well we can't use the steam engine because there would be no way to sustain the creation of diesel fuel! An effort must be made for ANYTHING to work! And like I have said over and over, it doesn't have to be the only alternative fuel. I'm not sure about hybrds yet, I'm hearing a lot of people say they aren't the vehicle of the future because of reliability problems and non-recyclable components, but I think it could be perfected to maybe be a good solution, but they still use gas, just somewhat less of it.
- 'Ethanol production uses MORE energy than gasoline production, so it therefore will INCREASE our dependence on foreign oil.'
I hear a lot of ethanol naysayers say that, but so far have heard no evidence to back it up. And as I stated before, if more people were making it, perfection make it more viable. You're basically listening to hype put out there by big oil companies, because they want ethanol to be snuffed out so they can continue on with their monopoly.
'As for the Prius, the Prius is NOT slow by SUV standards and, in fact, is faster than many on the road today. And your example of the Ford Escape hybrid is driven by... a PRIUS-based ENGINE. Oops, another of your theories out the door.'
motortrend.com:
Pruis 0-60:10.2 seconds
GMC Yukon Denali 0-60:6.4 seconds.
So no, the Prius is by no means fast, even compared to SUV's. And as far as the Ford Escape goes, the reason I would buy it over a Prius is because (1) I like Ford more than Toyota and (2) I despise the way the Prius looks. If they made it look like a normal vehicle then I might like it more. But it all comes down to personal opinion on that one.
And why are you promoting non-dependence on foreign anything, and then saying everyone should be driving Priuses and Corollas, which are foreign products! You might rethink that one.
American's have always liked big cars, I don't see any big problems with that, I think everybody should buy whatever they want, and the government has no right to tell people what they can and can't drive, that kind of violates the 'pursuit of happiness' part of the Constitution.