26th Oct 2007, 19:37

08:33 No one here said trucks should be eliminated, at least not in any comments I read. People that don't NEED trucks shouldn't buy them, that's all. And I'm willing to bet that probably 90% of people that own trucks don't need them. If you think you need one for winter, learn how to drive instead. Pennsylvania winters are as bad as anywhere else in the country, and I can get anywhere I want to go in a car; earlier in life I even did it in rear wheel drive cars. Four wheel drive is not a necessity unless you live on top of a mountain in a cold climate. There are too many hillbillies in my area, (think Larry the Cable guy) that think they're too manly to drive an efficient car. The truth is, they're too stupid to see why their truck is a waste, is hurting them in the long run, as well as the rest of us. They buy them just to jack them up on 38" tires, put dual exhausts on them, and think they're cool. Grow a personality instead of defining yourself by the vehicle you drive.

26th Oct 2007, 20:34

19;18 Yeah, sure. Toyota finally has only two models in the last 20 years that haven't been fully recommended. Meanwhile, every GM and Ford piece of scrap that they drag off of the assembly line in the last 20 years has been rated as exactly what it is: JUNK. Toyota is still head, shoulders, and everything else above any domestic crap. Ah... so continues the tradition of domestic automobiles being pure garbage.

26th Oct 2007, 22:00

Usually if you are towing so much stuff you should probably have a truck with a big and strong rear axle. Like an F350 or 450 or bigger. I just towed a big trailer on a truck you guys say is so strong, "150" and that thing cannot do much. I cannot see an F250 improving much better unless it had a good turbo diesel. The Tundra at least trumps the 150 in everything possible in my opinion. At least the one I was using did not rattle all the time, but maybe that is because it is stuffed with $4,000 in foam instead of engineering a better quality interior.

27th Oct 2007, 07:50

The Tundra just can't cut the mustard. Compare payload and towing capacity, manufacturer's warranty, number of engine choices, and most importantly, heritage, and the big three domestic automakers come out on top every time!

27th Oct 2007, 13:16

20:34.

You are missing the point.

Consumer reports has always been devoted to trashing American automotive, while singing praises about Japanese vehicles, no matter how the two actually stacked up to each other.

Consumer Reports, if they had any degree of objectivity, should have been reporting Toyota's quality/reliability problems years ago. For them to actually be reporting problems now, trying to save what little face they have left, the problems are much worse then they are letting on.

Consumer Reports' poor ratings of domestic vehicles in the past mean absolutely nothing to me, because they have always been blatantly biased against the American manufacturers. Once again, to be fair, I also do not believe their ratings of Toyota either. The difference in Toyota's case however, is that the problems are undoubtedly much WORSE than Consumer Reports is disclosing.

As usual, of course, the excuses from the Toyota congregation keep flying, no matter what garbage Toyota keeps unleashing.

28th Oct 2007, 07:03

19:37 Don't think small Toyota pickups are totally immune to the so called hillbilly treatment as you say... I have seen these small old Toyota 4x4 pickups myself elevated with rifle racks in the back window, burning oil, a hundred decals on the windows with large rust. Granted they are still running, but not pretty. I do not hunt am not condemning someone that does. By the way new fully loaded domestics F250-350 class run up to 50K each and I know quite a few contractors owning more than 1 that are not conveniently fitting the stereotype you describe. The leave the factory and then have a lot added at times beyond that. Also these stereotypes have to go and trying to apply small car, light truck mentality on the largest segment of the market in the U.S.A. doesn't fit. If you are discussing homeowners driving empty trucks wasting fuel going to work maybe the comments have some relevance. Focusing on fuel economy, light trucks when there are not adequate diesel vehicle platforms to choose from the imports for large contractors is not going to make many of us look. In my discussions talking with many contractors most everyone prefers new large 4WD diesel Fords. The pickups are new however I know those with new and slightly older dump trucks that have been completely rebuilt then applying high end paint work some totally indisquishable from new. I saw a mint 220,000 mile one just a couple days ago at the building supply that looked like it just came off the assembly line.

28th Oct 2007, 07:39

13:16; 'Consumer Reports is BIASED against domestic automobiles'. What about every other publication that rates domestics much lower than imports in the last 20 years? Are they ALL BIASED? You see, their job is separate the junk (Ford, GM) from the good stuff (Toyota, Honda, Nissan). So, if GM and Ford consistently make garbage, and they do, they will consistently get low ratings.

Granted, Ford has taken steps to improve their quality, albeit small ones and not nearly enough yet, but better, and look, Consumer Reports now gives a couple of their vehicles good ratings. There is no BIAS. If GM ever stops making scrap again and makes a car worth driving, it'll get better ratings to. For now, Toyota is still miles ahead of them, has been for many years.

29th Oct 2007, 10:26

Consumer reports started publishing in 1936, which was a good 30+ years before Japanese cars were even sold in any large quantity in the US. To say that somehow or another, Consumer Reports must surely be the evil snaked-tongued mouthpiece of the Japanese auto industry and their evil job-robbing plight against all those hard-working union autoworkers is kind of silly. The fact of the matter is that in 1996, Consumer reports was involved in a lawsuit not with a domestic auto manufacture, but Isuzu.

Now I'm sure that there some people who think that the world would be perfect if the only cars allowed in the US were American-made and that we, as dutiful, patriotic citizens owe it to our countrymen to buy nothing, but US-made goods. But unfortunately, that's not how capitalism or free trade works. If we were as such, then we'd be more of a socialist country. Think about cold war era China and Russia and how they only cars and trucks you could buy were poorly made, state-owned vehicles that barely functioned. The fact that there was zero competition meant that there was no pressure to improve the product.

If the US had kept this policy, then we would still probably be driving huge clunky cast iron engined cars that lasted 50,000 miles or less. Look at it this way- Yes- US branded cars have improved a lot in the last 20 years. If you can recall back in the 80's, the difference between Japanese and American cars was embarrassingly huge. The engineering, quality, and reliability of Japanese cars was literally YEARS ahead of the American cars of that time period. It was this kind of competition that made US brand cars better and better. The difference between domestic and import brands is drastically more narrow.

If the US had not gotten this pressure, the quality would not be at the level that it is today. The same can be said for everything we buy. Sooner or later China will start selling cars here as well, at huge discounted prices- just like the Japanese did back in the 70's. It will start the cycle all over again and likely lead to even more innovation.

This is the benefit of having a free trade society. You as the consumer have the ability to choose from the best products. The product that sells well is either priced well or of better quality. Free market forces are probably the best way to get answers to what products are more reliable and better built.

Besides, most vehicles are composed of so many internationally sourced parts, that the only thing remaining of their national origin is the name. We are in an international economy where brands from every country are everywhere. Embrace it.