21st Feb 2009, 18:06

I suggest everyone in this forum read "The United States of Toyota" by Peter DeLorenzo before flippantly commenting that destroying the U.S. auto industry is "their business if they choose to buy from a foreign company". His figures indicate that ONE IN FOURTEEN jobs in the U.S. is either directly or indirectly related to the U.S. auto industry. You may not even KNOW if your job is related to domestic car makers or not... until you get your pink slip.

22nd Feb 2009, 07:50

"Costa Rico"

Do you mean Costa Rica or Puerto Rico? The amalgam seems an unlikely source for good dental care :)

22nd Feb 2009, 10:38

Costa Rica. I agree I'll take health care here as well. And also avoid the Tundra for a better domestic full size as well.

22nd Feb 2009, 16:29

I totally agree, and have long urged people to do just this. I am a car nut and love to just go out and drive different cars. I have many friends who work at dealerships and service departments in my area, and on several occasions I've been offered a new car to use for the entire day or weekend. A 5-minute test drive tells you very little, especially if you can't really drive the guts out of the vehicle to assess its performance capabilities. When people whine about buying a "puny performing" vehicle they'll get no sympathy from me. You can tell in TEN SECONDS if a car is "puny". Simply floor the accelerator and if you aren't doing 60mph in 10 seconds, I'd say it is "puny". That's not to say many "puny" cars aren't very good and economical cars. It depends on your needs and preferences. Some of my 10+ second cars were extremely good for the tasks I expected of them.

With all that said, after driving domestic, Japanese, Korean, German and Swedish cars, I always come to the same conclusion: For the overall BEST in warranty, performance, value and reliability, NOTHING has ever proven better for us than a Ford, GM or Chrysler, whether it be cars, trucks or SUV's. New domestics are just better overall than anything available today. This is especially true of full-sized trucks. The Tundra falls so far short in this area it should not even be considered.

22nd Feb 2009, 16:33

"Yeah... particularly if it were true. Most hospitals either won't or can't by law turn away a patient based on their ability to pay -- something about that "do no harm" thing. So this isn't about the poor being left to die"

You might inform the family of a young man who was left on the concrete walk outside an emergency room to die for want of a shot of insulin here in our area about this "myth".

22nd Feb 2009, 17:33

Wow! This thread has gotten so far off topic, I'm very surprised that Steven (steven@carsurvey.org) hasn't pulled the plug on adding comments to it!

22nd Feb 2009, 21:39

"Costa Rico"

"Do you mean Costa Rica or Puerto Rico? The amalgam seems an unlikely source for good dental care :) "

I'm really not quite sure where discussions of dental fillings apply on a car review site. I suppose if you drove a really rough-riding car, such as a Mustang GT or Scion Tc it might apply, as those cars DO tend to jar your fillings out!! :)

23rd Feb 2009, 11:30

I didn't use the term "myth" but I DID use the term "Most". My wife has worked in 4 different health systems in two states... two public, two private. All offered service at no cost to those who couldn't pay. It's also notable that the young man that you referred to apparently made the news by his misfortune. That suggests just how extraordinary his circumstance was. Even your outrage, alone, should confirm this. This was not a daily occurrence and was not likely the result of a policy of patient denial. Please understand here that I don't know for sure if the policies in MN and ND are based upon state laws or federal ones, but the stated basis of these laws is universal... to whit, the hippocratic oath. The failure to provide care is considered my most (there is some debate on this subject) to be the same as "doing harm".

Anyway patient denial is uncommon and not the real base rationale for a government-based single payer system. Unfortunately this is an inappropriate forum for this discussion.

So back to cars.

"I'm really not quite sure where discussions of dental fillings apply on a car review site. I suppose if you drove a really rough-riding car, such as a Mustang GT or Scion Tc it might apply, as those cars DO tend to jar your fillings out!! :) "

So does my Jeep. But, oh what fun!! Dentist be d@#$ed :)

I used to own a 2000 Tundra. It was sold at 107,000 miles and was a good reliable vehicle during that time-frame. However, I will be buying domestically for my next truck. The Tundra WAS a lightweight vehicle and not great for trailering heavy stuff. The suspension was too soft to keep a trailer running straight in a side wind. My old Chevy was stiffer but it liked to wander a bit due to play in the steering. Newer Domestics look to be fairly reliable (according to CR) and have great features for trailering. Also Toyota's recent quality glitches make me nervous about longer-term wear and tear. If they missed a number of "misforged" cams, etc. what else have they missed that will only show up just after the warranty expires or at 100,000 miles? The latest model just seemed like it was released half-baked... which isn't very confidence inspiring. It's usually good to wait a few years before buying a new model anyway because everyone makes mistakes.

23rd Feb 2009, 11:43

I, for one, appreciate the fact that Steven has allowed these seemingly off-track comments. So few people in the U.S. really have the faintest idea of how far-reaching the auto industry and its effects are. With approximately one in fifteen U.S. jobs tied directly or indirectly to the American auto industry, discussions of related topics is very much appropriate to a vehicle-related site.

The U.S. auto industry involves financial institutions, insurance firms and the health care industry. As stated earlier, one of the U.S. auto makers largest problems is the draconian health care system here that costs auto makers billions of dollars. Unlike more enlightened countries, such as the UK and Canada, many people here scream bloody murder at the idea of our government doing anything to help our poor or elderly citizens. Lobbying groups such as the AMA put out false information to frighten our citizens into avoiding providing our people with health care. They tell us that you have to wait 6 months to see a doctor if you have a medical emergency in Canada or the UK. This is patently false. I have friends in both Canada and the UK and they literally fear coming to the U.S. because they might become ill or involved in an accident, and either be denied care or literally bankrupted by an emergency room visit.

There is one case here where a child was left to bleed to death in an emergency room without care because his father had to rush home to get his insurance card before a doctor would even LOOK at the child. The family sued and it was one of the largest awards ever made for medical malpractice at the time. This sort of thing happens EVERY DAY in the U.S., and health care is VERY MUCH a part of the economic problems facing domestic auto makers.

Comparing vehicles is far more involved than saying "I prefer Ford" or "I prefer Toyota". We need to look at the disastrous effects of buying from foreign companies, and we need to understand the archaic governmental policies here that hinder our businesses. The American public (the 50% that CAN read) need to inform themselves about many aspects of our economy while we still have one to read about. A foreign commentator on a TV show recently referred to "undeveloped countries such as Australia and the U.S." He was pretty much right on (about the U.S. at least).