6th Apr 2009, 10:47
First of all, the US economy will not go into a depression if the US auto industry fails. Manufacturing is no longer the largest industry in the US economy. In fact, auto manufacturing doesn't even make the top 50 on the current list. Education, medical, technology, and even grocery stores are all considerably higher than that of the auto industry.
Secondly, I have to agree with you. The US government won't allow the big three to go under. That said, what will happen is that when they do go bankrupt - which likely will be GM and Chrysler - they will emerge as smaller, niche players with smaller lineups and smaller production numbers. Bankruptcy will give GM the chance to basically eradicate their union obligations. But even so, the days of US cars and trucks are likely numbered. With the future bringing even more cars and trucks from India and China, the US auto industry cannot compete on that level.
6th Apr 2009, 16:00
21:50 I also am extremely specific and own a new full size domestic GM Silverado. Since the topic is specifically full size trucks, I appreciate direct comparisons as well.
Some might feel that my new full size truck was a considerable investment, and I would like to know how you spent more $ specifically and attained a lot more than myself with your research on full size models. Why would you spend almost $50,000 and what far greater functions, applications were attained?
Since I own a new full size and apparently spent less and received less, what is it exactly that your truck has? I drove them both and bought just 1. It was not pricing by the way. This is not a small 4 cylinder vehicle, it's a considerable investment and I suspect you have many posts.
Is the model I bought and comparing to a "Toyota whatcar" or a "Toyota whattruck"? If you indicated you spend more and get more, what do you specifically have? It would nice to just say I have a F- Series, Tundra, Silverado, Ram, Titan as we all know the models on here as well as the manufacturers.
If you are conjuring about comments, be true to the exact model being compared to... full sizes.
There are a lot of cars I do not like... as well I do not like them. It's not very indicative of actual full size truck ownership and daily experience.
If you read Car Survey, I have yet to see a manufacturer, only on any reader comments. It actually has a manufacturer, a make and a year involved. Maybe there should just be a "Toyota" list and never say any more. Maybe there are others like myself that appreciate specifics as we own exact categories being discussed.
Also Honda keeps being commented on... there is not 1 single full size truck. And Aveos on here... why? What full size truck do you own that you are so enamored with and are raving about?
6th Apr 2009, 17:46
The problem that you, if you are indeed a therapist, should realize is that whether or not some Toyota fanatic has a supporting rationale is immaterial to the question of whether or not one exists. Restated, it simply doesn't matter if you are able to talk down, outlast, outclass, or outthink a Toyota lover because the truth is independent of his argument. You could absolutely blow someone out of the proverbial water with your information... yet still be absolutely, utterly wrong.
Also your friends, I maintain, would have to have incredibly low standards of evidence as well. That was the point of my post. If they weren't already going to purchase Fusions because of the other evidence, to accept a blog as remotely conclusive is just plain bizarre.
Again... I'm not talking about the actual reviews on here (they have value). I'm talking about this thread.
So what if the Toyota guys on here haven't produced a compelling rationale? It doesn't make an ounce of real difference. It's a blog!!! Its likely loaded with half-truths and outright lies.
The reality is that according to most sites that use or at least attempt scientific type surveys, Toyota and Ford are some of the highest rated companies (based on average product quality) in the world. You can sit on here posting otherwise based on purely anecdotal evidence as some have done and seem to be making a rational argument. But the truth remains that the most conclusive, scientific, and large-scale studies show very similar results: Toyota AND Ford are VERY highly rated as are several brands and products from GM and Chrysler.
You and others can pretend that they are just "magazines" and that they don't represent any research, but until someone has actual proof of intentional wrong-doing in an attempt to create biased outcomes with these studies, they remain what they are: the single best source for reliability information.
You mentioned that your friends didn't ONLY look at this thread in making up their minds (that's a relief). Neither do I or anyone else that I've read suggest the same of surveys. They are ONE OF MANY factors someone should consider before their money should hit the barrel-head.
"When a commenter who has previously stated that they have never owned a new domestic or full sized truck suddenly states "I've owned NEW and used domestics", you can immediately disregard the credibility of any previous (or future) statements from that commenter."
And if you can tell with absolute certainty that the poster is one and the same person, you are a far more than a therapist, you're a demi-god. I've been wrong (I think) when I've assumed that two people were one on this thread alone... so I'm a mere mortal.
"In addition, they actually talked with others who had bought Fords and driven them for a few years. This is an excellent way of determining quality and reliability."
That's fine but a survey is helpful too because of the number of respondents. The outcome will be more conclusive... especially if you examine more than one survey to average their scoring.
5th Apr 2009, 21:50
06:37 I agree. I've also owned domestics. Clearly, I wasn't biased if I bought them. The problem is, they let me down almost every time.
Now I am biased. More than 1000 comments on this ridiculous thread don't change the fact that I, along with MOST buyers, discovered Toyota vehicles at some point, bought them, and stopped buying domestics cold turkey. Sales numbers over the last decade reflect my statements.
I've said this before, but the really absurd argument is that domestics are better AND cost less. If this were true, Toyota would never have gotten off the ground. The FACT is, domestics DO cost less but you GET less. You get a LESS reliable, lower quality vehicle. Toyota's cost more because they're WORTH more; i.e. built with a higher standard for quality. FAR better research and development practices; hence a better product that lands on the dealer sales lots.
I've seen the same argument about Honda's on Honda threads. Anybody who is mechanically aware knows that Honda builds probably the best engines in the world. But, you'll still get some people who actually believe that a Chevy Cobalt or a Ford Focus has a better engine, or is a better car. Not even close. Nor are they close to any of Toyota's products in quality, cars, trucks, vans, or otherwise.