16th Apr 2009, 13:54

"I own a full size new pickup, but no matter what I do it's a truck. What I tow with it is what makes its ownership worthwhile."

This is a great point. Year before last when we were on vacation in the mountains we were stuck for a while behind a Toyota Tundra that had overheated trying to tow a modest little travel trailer up the mountain. Not only did our GMC zip up the mountain as if it were coasting downhill, but on the entire 1000+ mile trip we averaged closed to 20mpg. Larger domestic vehicles have the edge in both power and utility over flimsily built Japanese vehicles. Toyota is good at making little flimsy economy cars. They should stick to something they are good at and not try to compete with proven success in full-sized vehicles.

16th Apr 2009, 13:58

Only 9% of auto workers in the U.S. work for foreign-owned manufacturers. The other 91% work for the Big Three. Thanks for your support of less than 1 in 10 auto workers. I'm sure they appreciate it.

16th Apr 2009, 20:59

"Excuse me... wasn't this review about a Toyota Tundra?"

Excuse me... didn't you notice that the last 1100 comments or so have been "off-topic"?? :)

P.S. I agree with you if you think that this thread should be directly about the Tundra.

17th Apr 2009, 10:56

Regardless - I don't care what company or factory a US worker works in. I buy what I deem as the best product. We are not a communist country where we are forced to buy national brands. Thus I buy what I see as the best product, and if the domestic automakers can't cut it, then it is their responsibility to make the changes necessary to make their products meet the quality demands of current consumers. Otherwise they can go bankrupt.

Lastly, if those US autoworkers lose their jobs, they will hopefully have seen the writing on the wall a long time ago and prepared themselves for other careers. The signs have been out there that this was inevitable, and what is happening should not be a surprise. That's what life is about - change. How many elevator operators do you see these days? That's the same analogy.

And in regards to the "Toyota builds flimsy cars and trucks"... It's funny to repeatedly read these comments made by folks who think that we should all be driving monstrous, huge, gigantic trucks to go get the groceries or pull toys to the lake on the weekends. If Toyotas were indeed flimsy... then they wouldn't be getting the quality ratings and loyal owners they currently have.

The irony here is that if you want to point fingers at some of the reasons GM and Chrysler are failing miserably, some of that "Big truck" mentality is what got them into hot water because Americans for so long insisted on buying huge, gas-guzzling cars and trucks, conditioning themselves to actually believe that they MUST have such vehicles. I've traveled to several countries. Full size trucks don't exist anywhere else. Yet somehow those people get by don't they? Now why we would consider ourselves deprived if we don't have those giant trucks is to me just more proof of why this line of thinking is going to go extinct, right along with the car companies that make them.

18th Apr 2009, 11:01

I am always amazed at U.S. citizens who want to see our economy fail. It makes little sense.

As for heavy-duty vehicles, U.S. companies have to have them. Our companies have to have vehicles that can carry heavy building materials and be depended upon to get to and from job sites every day. Needless to say, none of our trucks are Toyotas.

18th Apr 2009, 17:11

I disagree. Traveling extensively abroad myself, I have seen many imports up to V-12's "gas guzzlers" with hefty price stickers from Ferrari, Lamborghinis, Mercedes. Seem to be pretty popular. Also in Florida they are pretty common as well.

As far as full size truck ownership, the number one selling vehicle in America for well over 20 years has consistently been a full size truck. It is extremely doubtful the usefulness and versatility of such a vehicle will ever disappear. If anything, they will remain unchanged with perhaps different engine designs involving Hybrids or the like down the road.

Gas is not very expensive at the moment, if anything the little smart cars have lost some appeal in our area. When someone get gas scare they seem to rush to go small. We have found the usefulness and appeal of full size truck ownership. With a family of 5, having a full size truck is not limited to weekends only towing. We have utilized ours from towing as our primary application, to attending to our rental properties, moving and carrying gear, larger shopping and being able to bring home same day items from stores, antique shops, and sometimes I will bring home a gallon of milk. It's likely that anyone actually owning such a vehicle finds how handy and useful they are.

I have had small trucks and found them to be extremely limited... needing 2 vehicles following one another, calling in friends to move my boat (s) in the past, having to still pay delivery fees as my small truck could not handle it. I also have found that someone can be taking on additional debt even buying a new small car that have bad debt ratios vs. someone that can handle buying a large vehicle with very little or no impact.

As far as traveling abroad, my final comment on that is that I have traveled and seen someone drinking from a puddle along the road and the sanitation was unreal... sure the people survive somehow, but do we wish to emulate the minimum on getting by.

Somehow I find it wrong to indicate what everyone should be driving when they own the new vehicle in question, also their residence(s) mine are all positive income and have zero credit card debt. If I can own a new very practical useful vehicle for long distance trips vs. a high mileage beater, I'll take new. I consider having a new practical vehicle ideal with a very active family... if I were solo I could stand along the road, but it's certainly not necessary for us. I have quite a few friends, some mentors that have been inspirational in not settling for the bare minimum in life. If you can successfully work hard and achieve success, feel good for those that have. Anyone that loves their new vehicle worked hard and owns it....... congratulations!

20th Apr 2009, 12:33

Nobody on this site has said that they want the economy to fail. This topic is mostly about vehicle quality. Not a single person I know works in an automotive related company. If US carmakers fail, the US economy isn't going to implode. Lastly, I doubt US carmakers are going to outright fail overnight. GM is going to go bankrupt in order to restructure their bloated company. I would say that in the future they will likely be a smaller, leaner company. Then again, the US auto industry could slowly evaporate over time as that that used to exist in the UK, where over time most of their brands either went defunct or were bought out by foreign companies. Yet the UK economy up until recently was strong, thus it's clear that the US could easily transition from a manufacturing based economy to a service based one... which honestly we've already over the past 30 years. The factory economy is long-gone.

In regards to US companies having to have full size trucks, well the bulk of this and other countries towing is done using tractor trailers. These are not consumer vehicles.

Secondly, I agree that there are farmers, construction workers, and equipment repair people who need full size trucks. But roughly 90% of the full size trucks I see on the freeways are all for show. Most look like they are never used for anything other than hauling groceries. The argument that the average US consumer NEEDS to have a full size truck is bunk. The real answer is that most Americans are wasteful and spoiled rotten after decades of ill-gained lower cost oil.

Trust me - the current prices are a temporary stall before the economy recovers. Say what you want, but China alone will have as much as 9 times the cars that the US does if they continue with their current growth rate. I can assure you that gas prices will ultimately rise again, and do so probably higher than last summer. Once again Americans who have short memories who buy huge trucks to do nothing but haul toys, boats, campers, etc etc will suddenly find themselves with absolutely worthless, impossible to sell trucks that will eat their savings away. It's not a matter of if, but when this will happen. The bottom line is that yes, it is your choice to buy the biggest honkin' truck out there. But don't fool yourself into thinking that fuel will always be cheap and plentiful.

"I disagree. Traveling extensively abroad myself, I have seen many imports up to V-12's "gas guzzlers" with hefty price stickers from Ferrari, Lamborghinis, Mercedes. Seem to be pretty popular."

I have been to the UK, Ireland, Germany, France, and Brazil. The vast bulk of cars in all of these countries were tiny little cars. I rented a Ford Galaxy, which in Europe is a minivan. It seated 8 people but it got over 50MPG. The family we stayed with drove a Ford Fiesta. It too was a small car that got 45-50MPG. There are heavy taxes in many countries for cars. The Fiesta was 16,000 British pounds, or around $25,000 US at the time. Having a car period in other places is a luxury.

I saw maybe 2-3 full size trucks during my whole time in the UK, and these were actual American trucks imported from the US. Apparently some of the wealthy in the UK and other countries import these. That's right - the wealthy. That says a lot. What we did see a lot were Mercedes vans. You will see these in the US called the Dodge Sprinter. They're tall, ugly, and underpowered. But they are made to do one thing, and that's to haul lots of equipment and other commercial goods. They get 30MPG. A far cry from the MPG most US consumer trucks get.

The big difference between most other countries and the US is that vehicles used to haul things are purpose-built, versus the bulk of the trucks in the US, which are mostly pleasure vehicles that seldom see real work.