8th Jul 2008, 17:48
15:54 No, you don't have any documented evidence to dispute anything I said. Your Fords or Chevy's may have ran for a while, but the build quality still wasn't and isn't as good as a Toyota; not on the day you bought it.
You can have your opinions of course, but anybody can see that any Toyota is better put together than any Ford or GM, parking them side by side.
And to put a finer point on it, Toyota engines are so much better designed and built that there is no comparison.
9th Jul 2008, 11:09
Ahh... So we're now comparing kitchen appliances.
First of all, just try to find any appliances still made in the USA. None of them are.
Secondly, try and find any new appliances that aren't made out of cheap materials. I have a 6 year old Magic Chef gas oven/range. While it is assembled in the US, all the parts are from Mexico. The eyes constantly burn out the igniters. The igniter module burned out twice, and the front handle comes loose no matter how many times the screws are re-tightened. The gas burners also like to rust to the range top. Absolute garbage.
I'll agree - many things made decades ago were better. But regardless of where it was made, everything has gotten crappier over time because of competition and the desire to cut costs and corners. This is why most US manufacturing is history and why US factories constantly shut their doors. This is especially true with the US auto manufacturing industry.
9th Jul 2008, 11:26
So, you once again have nothing left but to revert to the same old "It's obvious that Toyota is better because I say so" and deny that anyone could really have owned a dozen high mileage domestic vehicles.
Toyota engines are "so much better designed and built" why, exactly? Because you think your old beater Tacoma is the best truck ever made? People present lists of trouble-free domestic vehicles they have owned, and your response is "Everybody knows that Toyota is better."
Obviously you're not prepared for any serious debate, but revert only to the same position that you hate American cars and industry, and worship Japanese cars, and no facts will dissuade you from those views. You "believe" all domestic cars to be junk, but the facts just don't support that belief. There is a difference between belief and fact. For example, your belief is not supported by the facts.
9th Jul 2008, 12:30
I don't own a truck, but I read these foreign v. domestic threads, and would like to throw my two cents in.
Toyota has excellent quality mechanically speaking as far as the engine, drivetrain, and A/C components. Other things you could make a case.
My mom has a 1996 Corolla. It has 142,000 miles on it. The engine, transmission and A/C are still it top condition. But currently the CV joints are shot, so it sounds like rollers when you drive it. The engine is loud and louder at highway speeds. You have to talk loud to have a conversation.
The ride is harsh, the front door keyhole has fallen in, which seems to be an extremely common problem for 90's Toyota's (just go to the junkyard). Also the trunk key lock is stuck so you can't open the trunk. But I don't drive it often, but if it got fixed, I wouldn't mind having it because it gets great gas mileage. So all in all, it's a good car, but not without it's share of problems.
Me I have a domestic, a 95, which is about the same age as my mom's Corolla. I've had it for two years, cost me $2800 and it refuses to break down.
Is it perfect, no, but it isn't the crap everyone refers to, plus it's a luxury car.
The only repairs that I've had to do to it that where absolutely necessary was replaced a temp sensor that got brittle and fell out the radiator, complete brake job, and I recently replace the alternator.
I also got a paint job (cheap GM paint) and repaired my A/C, which I could have prevented from going out when it did. I ignored the signs and my compressor seized.
I'm not scared to take it out on the road any day. Recently I did 900 miles in three days, 400 miles in one day alone. It didn't break a sweat. But I'm realistic about things too. I expect the transmission to go out in the 170k-180k range, and I currently have 139,000 miles on it. That's the mileage I see on the cars at the junkyard that are the same line as mine.
In conclusion, I say that people talk worse about domestics than they really are, and at the same token, people don't respect the mechanical quality of imports, which is undeniable.
I say in the end drive what you like. I thought people had choices in what they drive, and they should respect the next man in his choice. You don't have to drive their car everyday, so don't worry about it.
10th Jul 2008, 11:02
Well, in regards to how well newer "domestic" vehicles have gotten, In the last year I have rented two Chevy Cobalts, A Chevy Malibu (the last version), a Ford Mustang, a Pontiac G6, and a Grand Am.
Out of those 6 cars, 3 were hardly what I'd call acceptable. The quality of the Cobalts was embarrassingly cheap. The fit and finish of the body and interior panels was fairly crude. The engine was harsh and sort of clanky.
The latest one I drove was a fairly high mileage vehicle for a rental, with 30,000 miles. The interior was shot. The speakers were actually blown and rattled in the doors. The trim for the door panels where the locks and handle was painted silver. A lot of the paint was coming off. The seats were extremely worn. Lastly, the engine made this hideous whining sound as if something like a belt was rubbing on something.
The Malibu's E-brake cable actually came loose on the second day. The trunk lid wasn't properly aligned and we had to slam it to shut, sometimes taking two attempts.
The two Pontiacs were OK. Given that these were brand new cars, I wouldn't expect anything wrong to happen. The Grand Am was probably the best of the GM products I drove. It was large, comfortable, and fuel efficient. But even so, it made a terrible grinding noise the first morning we drove it. It stopped after awhile. The rental agency told us "they all did it". The C6 was fine. There wasn't anything remarkable about it, but it ran fine and didn't have any problems.
The Mustang in my opinion was better built than any of the GM products. If I had to choose, I'd probably go with a Ford. But even though this was a V6, it got HORRIBLE fuel economy. As in 15-18MPG.
To me, domestic vehicles are much the same as they've always been: hit-or-miss. You might get a "good one", but you're almost as likely to get a bad one too. I still feel that by and large, the batting average for most Honda and Toyota products is better.
8th Jul 2008, 16:45
11:50 brought up the kitchen and household appliance issue somehow comparing a quality comment to Toyota and the seemingly lack of new American products in our household.
If you look closer lately, I am not seeing Japan as much as you think. I am seeing Malaysia and Chinese products.
Here's a great example of planned obsolescence. They break with plastic lightweight parts, gears etc and they are throwaways. Yet here's a great example of domestics still performing. My mother bought 2 domestic vacuums built in North Canton Ohio for each floor, and has used them constantly since the early 80's. She has them lubricated cleaned reasonably at a the local vac shop. I found them well constructed. If you flip them over you have full cast aluminum bases and the top bearings can be easily removed, belt fan replacement is actually a simple do it yourself repair. I noticed this replacing her bulb other than that it's reasonable to drop off at a vac shop.
My wife on the other hand constantly buys new upright vacs that are expensive junk, completely full of plastic, and it's pretty, but they are crap and made overseas. My point is the same with import cars we have owned they have not been reliable.
Plus my young teen son sat on the hood of a new Honda Accord (not jumped), weight about 130, and he put a major dent in the hood. But it's a throwaway society anymore. Look at the steel and the weld quality on an older American made Schwinn bicycle, and then look at a new kids bike made out of scrap steel. Another example.