4th Nov 2008, 08:43
10:33.
Bad analogy (politics). We are trying to have a discussion (albeit spirited) about cars here.
If you want to add anything constructive, maybe you can explain why Toyota engines are failing in mass quantities:
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html
I still have not seen a Toyota fan address this.
4th Nov 2008, 10:00
"http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html.
I still have not seen a Toyota fan address this."
I'll address it for you. Yes - cars have problems. All brands, all models, and all years, regardless of what the overall quality reports might say. But what you're suggesting above isn't proof of anything. If you look on the same site you're using to make your case, just click on the General Motors section and select just one of their cars. Here's the thread for the Chevy Malibu for example:
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/gm_chev_malibu.html
On that page alone, there's over 100 entries.
What about the Chevy Impala?
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/gm_chev_malibu.html
Again - well over 100 entries.
Now... what about the Avalon?
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_avalon.html
2 complaints. That's right, not 100, not 20, or even 10, but TWO. The difference between the complaints racked up against GM versus Toyota is inline with what I've mentioned above, which is that all in all, Toyota quality is generally better than GM and Ford. I even read on that site that one reader had claimed that the site was "unfair" to GM. Ironic, since the material was written by actual GM owners and not journalists.
Sure - cars have problems. The key is which cars in general have LESS problems. The answer is clearly easy to see, even using the site you mentioned above.
4th Nov 2008, 11:16
08:43 Well, Toyota engines aren't, and have never, failed in mass quantities. That's your phrase and it's your opinion. Nothing more. And there's your answer. They leave that kind of poor design and build to Ford and GM.
The sad thing is, Ford and GM's crappy drivetrains are the least of their troubles. I'm dating a paralegal; I won't say who or where obviously, who has handled the workload for HUNDREDS of cases against Ford, personally.. for vehicles bursting into flames while in the garage, hours after being driven, for example. I could go on and on, spark plugs blowing right out of badly machined heads, causing fires, brake and seatbelt related accidents. All of this is FACT. Google anything I just mentioned and put "Ford" behind it; you will see the proof as well as a mountain of other Ford and GM's embarrassing safety and quality oversights.
I don't expect you diehard domestic fans to understand why Toyota's and Honda's are better vehicles. If you did understand, you wouldn't be driving Fords and Chevy's. The only reason to own one is by default; if you need something that can tow the load an F-350 can, because the imports wisely didn't enter that market.
Wonder why Ford/GM/Dodge trucks are sitting on the lots for several months or a year at a time? Why those three are all in serious trouble? Toyota and Honda invested where the market is. Passenger cars, light to full size trucks, vans..etc. Granted, the F-350 isn't a bad truck. But as for anything smaller, ANY car or light truck, Toyota and Honda outclassed them decades ago and continue to today, by a large margin.
4th Nov 2008, 11:58
To 08:43. Sorry, but you will NEVER see an import fan provide any DOCUMENTED or VERIFIABLE data proving that imports are better. I've offered this challenge so many times I have Carpal-tunnel syndrome from typing so much.
I'm a senior citizen, mechanic and car enthusiast. I've driven, worked on and owned some of just about every moderately priced vehicle around. In all my years of car ownership (we usually own 3-4 at a time) we've owned German, Japanese and domestic vehicles. No import has EVER been as solidly reliable as ANY of our Ford, GM or Chrysler products.
We have put 300,000+ miles on a Ford with virtually zero problems, 240,000+ miles on a Dodge with similar results and 277,000+ miles on a Buick with NO problems of ANY kind.
I see comments from import owners who have probably never owned a domestic stating that "Ford engines blow up at 40,000 miles".
The daughter of a friend of ours bought a brand new Ford and drove it 56,000 miles without EVER OPENING THE HOOD!! She was totally ignorant of cars and her father had no idea she wasn't having it serviced. That it made 56,000 miles without oil changes or even checking any of the fluids (or requiring a battery) is a miracle in itself.
We had a neighbor who bought a new Corolla and had it serviced exactly as recommended. The engine seized at 30,000 miles and Toyota (at first) refused to fix it, claiming he HADN'T changed the oil. The man stuck lemon stickers on the car, rented a large truck (a FORD appropriately), and hauled the Corolla around with a large sign on it. The local newspaper ran a photo of it with the caption "Oh what a feeling to DRAG a Toyota". I heard later that after much bad publicity, the dealer agreed to a settlement.
We currently own an 8-year-old GM car, a 5-year-old GM SUV and a 1-year-old Ford. None of them has ever had a single problem. The 8-year-old GM has had tires, a battery, and brake pads (at 70,000 miles). The Ford, of course, is new, but in view of our past experience with Fords, I expect this one to outlive me. The ONLY cars we've had experience with that DIDN'T make 100,000 miles without massive problems were a Honda Civic and a Volkswagen.
As for Tundra, Toyota made a good decision to copy some of Ford's great design ideas on the newer, larger Tundra. Unfortunately, Toyota's "uncharacteristic lapse in quality" (as Consumer Reports put it) still plagues the Tundra, making it a bit of a risky buy for reliability.
The rock-solid Ford F-150 STILL remains the best selling vehicle on the planet after 3 DECADES, and likely will continue to hold that position unless knocked off by rising fuel prices. Unfounded statements declaring imports "superior" will doubtless continue to keep right on going and going... just like our domestic vehicles do.
3rd Nov 2008, 10:33
You know, if you tell yourself something over and over again, such as trying to convince others that somehow, GM and Ford make better cars than Toyota or Honda, you start believing it yourself.
Again, the overall conclusion based on the grand total of available quality comparisons via publications, reports, and studies show Toyota and Honda outperforming the big three, and usually by large margins.
This argument is like the current presidential election: Even though one side chooses a woman who doesn't even know who the PM of Canada is and utilizes the same politics of the worst administration in US history, somehow roughly 45% of the US STILL thinks it's a good idea to elect them. Thank God this time they won't win.
But the same is with cars. Nevermind that GM and Ford have been pouring out garbage from their factories for years, have cut every corner possible, shipped massive amounts of labor overseas, and now even imports a lot of their engines from China, people still refuse to admit to the truth that yes - Honda and Toyota make a superior product, hands down, end of argument.