8th Jan 2009, 08:52
10:50.
You are concerned about misaligned fuel fill covers. Aside from your free hot dogs, it sounds to me like you had your mind made up that you were going to find problems with the Chevy trucks before you ever set foot on the lot.
Fit and finish issues can be highly subjective.
Give me ANY vehicle, including a brand/model vehicle I like, and I guarantee I can find a fit and finish problem. Finding a single problem such as the one you mentioned proves nothing.
The real question is, what is more important, a slightly misaligned fuel fill cover, or a vehicle's body/structural integrity as a whole? You are concerned about fuel fill doors being lined up to aerospace tolerances. How concerned then are you about documented accounts of Tundra bodies flexing so severely just from driving down the road, that body panels and tailgates are bending out of shape? How concerned are you about Tundra tailgates failing, just from having loads of little as two hundred pounds placed on them, or flying off the "trucks" while being driven down the road opened?
Take a look at some of the petitions being circulated on the web for Toyota to address this problem. Are all these people imagining these things?
Take a look at these pictures on the following site:
http://www.bodyshopzone.com/editorial/about_Toyota/Tundra_quality_problem.html
These are devastating problems, far beyond a misaligned panel. This is in addition to all of the devastating Toyota engine problems that are also being reported:
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html
Whether Toyota fans like it or not, the severity of Toyota's problems beyond other manufacturers is unprecedented and undeniable. If the automotive press was the slightest bit objective (instead of in the tank for Toyota), they would be seriously questioning whether Toyota's were even suitable for continued sale to the American public.
8th Jan 2009, 10:53
"Fit and finish issues can be highly subjective."
Oh- So I guess it's perfectly acceptable for a supposedly superior Chevy to have body and interior panels that don't fit flush nor align. I also suppose it's acceptable that their frames and frame hardware already show rust on the showroom floor, or that the sound dampening materials under the hood is clearly visible and fraying at the edges. Or that the weld splatters show bits of welding wire sticking out. Yes indeed - a fine example of quality American engineering.
Yet I know that if some of you pro- GM and Ford guys saw a Toyota with even a tiny scratch on it, you'd be all over that thing, pointing to all of us just how bad they are.
That this argument just keeps going on and on, and on just comes to prove that perhaps GM and Ford might actually survive since there's apparently still enough people out there who don't actually concern themselves with quality and still cling to their numbing patriotism. Good for them. You guys can buy all those clunky trucks. We who learned the truth long ago will keep on buying our "foreign" cars.
8th Jan 2009, 11:17
I agree with 12:59. My Explorer has never needed a repair. I document all my service intervals in Excel, and keep track of receipts on all my vehicles in Excel. I have the records to prove that my domestics are reliable and inexpensive to operate. If you don't believe it, it's not hurting me any.
8th Jan 2009, 15:36
Those of us who recognize how good American cars are have to remember to not get upset by the 15-year-old import-owner's vitriolic attacks. There is no real use arguing with the guy. He's made up his mind, and will not be convinced otherwise despite the mountain of personal testimonials and the evidence of Consumer Reports and JD Powers. Anybody who can so easily dismiss every owner's statement about reliability as "no proof", "could have made it up", etc., is not having a rational discussion. It's just another example of the online game where people make outrageous statements to see if they can get a rise out of people and then laugh about it. If the guy is determined to shun American cars, he's only hurting himself.
8th Jan 2009, 15:51
Sorry I do not believe number 6 (2001 Pontiac) if it's the V6, which is known to have intake gasket and dexcool issues. I have the 2000 Malibu V6, and every V6 engine that was made from 1998-2004 has had some problem with dexcool.
Now on topic. My domestic S10 1999 4x4 was a "failure", so was my 2000 Malibu. The issue here is not that you can prove your car is reliable or not, it's about perception. It is perceived by many (due to past experience) that domestics are not reliable. Doesn't matter if they are or if they are not quality.
My family has driven GM for decades and my last truck was the S10. My new one is a 2003 Nissan Frontier. I looked before at everything before getting it.
Dodge - Bad on gas and unreliable
Ranger - Outdated and ugly no crewcab
Canyon - 5cyl (what were they thinking), no long bed CC
Toyota - Had everything but too expensive
Frontier - Style, CC, longbox, proven engine, a ton of options, LSD, premium stereo.
Tundra would be my choice for full size.
8th Jan 2009, 16:20
22:35 how about indicating specific model years you owned and what new full size trucks you have specifically tested. I am taking a guess, but I suspect small tiny Tacoma on a full size truck review. Correct me if I am wrong... was your Explorer comment pertaining to full size truck ownership?
As far as fit and finish goes... I do my best to avoid scratches on my full size truck. I look at engines, transmissions, gear ratios, heavy duty cooling, towing capacities and load ratings.
As far as bouncing and clogging along, I will take a full size long wheel base GM ride anyday over a short hoppy Tacoma, especially elevated.
I suspect you will never own a new full size truck, just an old Tacoma, and the comments way way back on most likely used abused domestics. What year were all these vehicles? Be specific, it is now 2009... I would like to discuss my findings too. Not just sit, never own, never buy a new one and then complain.
I seem to manage with less cup holders, do have a minute scratch in the rear quarter caused by my belt onloading gear at a boat ramp. I think I'll live as long as it can pull up the ramps and drive 2 hours home in intense heat and bumper to bumper traffic.
If I had a Toyota, I would be installing a straw holder with my cup holders instead of ever dwelling on utility and full size truck function and purpose. Buy a full size someday and tell us what why and what you bought one for. Maybe you will have a more realistic ownership view.
7th Jan 2009, 22:35
12:59 More stories about domestics with no repairs and high miles. Why am I not surprised to read this? Because none of it can be proven.
For instance, the Ford Explorer is a piece of junk, any year, as are most Fords. Yet you claim it needed no repairs. I simply do not believe everything I read especially when it comes from domestic fans ranting about their vehicles on a Toyota thread, and with no way of proving a single word of it.
Your opinions aside, go back and read what I wrote; what CAN be proven, and has been documented: Toyota and Honda vehicles make far less trips to the garage than domestics. Period. I could easily type in a list of Toyota's I've owned that I haven't needed a penny in repairs. And that list would be accurate and true. But I still can't prove it to you. The difference is, research, reality, and fact back up my claims. My Toyota's never DID need repairs, and if you expect me to believe that a Ford Explorer didn't... well, it's not going to happen.
I could say that my Tercel had 450,000 miles on it and never needed a repair, just like you claim of all those domestics. And it wouldn't be true. However, I can claim, and it IS true, that I've owned three consecutive Toyota's that I abused badly, and never put a dime in repairs into any of them.
Another truth would be that the five domestics I've owned weren't even close in quality to the Toyota's and broke down regularly; the Ford Ranger I owned was the most miserable piece of garbage I ever wasted money on. Never again.
Imports every single time, because they're built better, last longer, are cheaper to own and drive, and are worth more on trade in; Toyota's and Honda's specifically. Ford, GM, and Dodge cannot compete with Toyota or Honda in build quality, design, reliability, or low cost of ownership.