22nd Jan 2009, 11:02
-- "To all the Big 3 fans: guess what? Repeatedly listing websites about problems Toyota has had does not address the facts I posted about their reliability from major sources... I can do the same (very easily) with Ford, GM, and Dodge." --
We could play this game all day, finding web sites that details all sorts of varying degrees of problems with a given manufacturer. But, we are talking about Toyota having COMPLETE LOW MILEAGE ENGINE FAILURES (E.G., BEFORE 80,000 - 100,000 MILES) ACROSS ALMOST THEIR ENTIRE PRODUCT LINE, i.e..
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html
These types of issues have NOT been documented with domestics.
Likewise, the equally horrific problems of Tacoma's snapping frames and Tundra's bending out of shape just from driving down the road have also been documented in previous posts, but have NOT been experienced by domestics.
Yet your response, in typical Toyota apologetic fashion, is to just make excuses for them:
-- "Of course they have problems. All machines do when you build hundreds of thousands or millions of them." --
The "proof" you claim you have of Toyota's being superior, provided by automotive magazines has been proven wrong by real world experience. You just do not want to admit it.
As has been stated in previous posts, even Consumer Reports (the most biased publication of all) has had to do an about face, put on their kid gloves and delicately say some bad things about their icon Toyota, rating the Camry and Tundra as having much less than average reliability and vehicles to be avoided.
I personally do not put any stock in Consumer Reports, regardless of what they are saying, but you obviously do. Are you saying Consumer Reports was wrong for rating the Camry and Tundra's reliability as much worse than average and no longer recommending them?
Further regarding your supposed "proof," consider this. Not only was Consumer reports wrong about their previous ratings of Toyota based on their own admission (i.e., having to change the ratings of the Camry and Tundra to no longer recommended and state that it was not proper to rate based on presumed reliability), but also based on the data on Consumer Affairs and the dissatisfied Toyota owners on this site... you know, all of the people you simply ignore.
Moreover, Consumer Affairs and reviews on this site indicate that there are serious problems with many other Toyota vehicles besides the Camry and Tundra, essentially including their entire product line. If you want to use Consumer Reports as the gauge, having previously been wrong in their ratings of the Camry and Tundra, might it also be reasonable to seriously suspect that Consumer Reports has been wrong in their ratings of other Toyota models?
Any way you look at it, that is some very shaky "proof" you are peddling.
22nd Jan 2009, 11:18
19:39 pretty much hits the nail on the head. Past reputations have nothing to do with current vehicles. Truth be known, imports were NEVER that good anyway. Millions of dollars in ad hype created a false impression.
As has been pointed out, the ONLY true criteria for assessing a vehicle's reliability is actual frequency of repair records. These have NOT been forthcoming. A subjective opinion means nothing without solid, verifiable data to support it. Provide some REAL data showing that Japanese vehicles ACTUALLY DO require less repairs and we might agree. That won't happen, because it just isn't so. If a vehicle goes 100,000 miles without a problem, in my book it is perfect and can't be improved upon. NOT ONE of our domestics has ever had a problem in 100,000 miles, so I really could care less about mythical 400,000 mile Toyotas. I WON'T be driving one.
23rd Jan 2009, 07:33
15:22 comment "I will not allow you" Amazing that our lives are suddenly under control. At any rate at some point in time your very high mileage vehicle breakdown will become inevitable
If it is very costly as mine has been it may suddenly direct you to a newer one that may be significantly worse. I was shocked myself and now I switched entirely to domestics today.
Old cars were better import wise in our household. But not everyone wants to keep questionable high mile vehicles with aged components throughout. If I were single, just me, I would not have a big issue with that. But my wife and daughter are not driving 250,000 mile cars on remote rural roads either.
22nd Jan 2009, 10:37
It's pretty funny that the one guy who keeps listing the one site - consumeraffairs.com as his ONE and only source of "proof" of how "bad" Toyotas are. Ironic, since we in return could more quickly show you our "proof" by simply asking you to read any number of posts for various Ford and GM products on this very site.
It's so painfully obvious that significantly more people have problems with domestic brand vehicles than Japanese brands, that it seems silly to repeatedly make attempts to refute the truth of the actual situation.
But to put the Consumer Affairs reference to rest, lets delve into these "problems" Toyota had.
1: The infamous engine sludging problem on select Toyota V6 engines from the 90's. The problem - which yes I admit - was a problem, was due to an inadequate PCV system. As you know, the PCV system removes crank case gases, which if allowed to accumulate in the oil, can in fact cause sludging, which is something that could happen on any car.
But the other half of this story is that the large majority of incidents reported were from owners who didn't change their oil frequently enough. In many cases, at 10-15,000 mile intervals. I was born and raised to change the oil every 3,000 miles, which I continue to do. I'm sorry, but if you change your oil every 15,000 miles, then don't be surprised if the engine blows. Regardless of the PCV system, oil accumulates contaminants and acids over time, and by not changing the oil regularly, you're chancing fate. My Brother has one of these engines in his '98 Avalon and 246,000 miles later, it still runs fine, despite the fact that he seldom remembers to change the oil.
2: The '06 Camry transmission problem. This affected under 1/2 of 1% of all '06 V6 Camrys with the 6 speed automatic transmission. This is the top-of-the-line Camry, thus we're talking about a very small number affected. The problem was caused by a single faulty snap ring in the transmission. The problem has since been addressed.
3: Lastly, the Tundra cam problem. This affected TWENTY TOTAL 5.7 Liter model Tundras. Toyota offered to do a full replacement of any engine affected. We're talking 20 out of 30,000 total trucks. It's hardly what I would call a major issue.
In summary, Toyota is like the perfect straight-A student whom typically excels at everything. But if they make even one tiny slip-up, the press is all over them along with the pro-domestic crowds. The irony here is that problems like these are far worse and more numerous in domestic brands. Yet we're conditioned to basically accept this, since it's almost expected. That it is perfectly A-OK for GM and Ford to have millions of defective vehicles on the road - as proven by recalls that sometimes affect millions of vehicles, yet it's not OK for Toyota to have a small fraction of these, is confusing to me indeed.