28th Jan 2009, 12:09
I'm the one (at least the main one I think) who has been promoting "Consumer Reports" data here on the forum. I didn't promote them simply because they support any particular claim about overall reliability.
This is a (ostensibly) 2002 Tundra forum. Back in 02 the Tundra was recommended because, while it was imperfect, the problems were still below the average pickup. However the new 07+ Tundra isn't recommended for the converse reason.
Consumer Reports has been reporting for a couple of years about the improvement of American makes and the more hit-and-miss quality (than has been true in the past) of Japanese-based imports. Ford has indeed improved... so has GM. Toyota has had several major introduction stumbles. Nissan has experienced very poor ratings on their Titan and Armada. They've also had a significantly lower corporate reliability average.
On the other hand -- just to cherry pick a bit -- the Fusion and Malibu have had few problems in their first years. Corporate quality averages still are better for Japanese based companies but since we don't buy companies --- we buy cars --- we need to be more informed than the customer who simply looks at country or company of origin to determine if the vehicle is reliable.
As I mentioned before, GM took out an advertisement basically apologizing for allowing their quality and innovation fall below industry standards. Who are WE to disagree with THEM? Toyota and Honda are widely seen as SETTING the industry standard for reliability. But...
They haven't been perfect as of late. This has been true of core products -- especially for Toyota. And Ford and GM are improving. So watch the reliability ratings data closely before purchase because "times -- they are a'changin'".
28th Jan 2009, 12:52
I suspect you're right. But, while true, I think this shows that something at Toyota is slipping because it didn't happen in the past. Toyota and Honda could be relied upon to produce "fully baked" models from the outset.
The problems, though they affected so few, are surprising and concerning because Consumer Reports paints with the same brush whether it's an American, European, Korean, or Japanese vehicle.
The surprising things were the fundamental nature of the problems, the explanation (pushed into early production), and the importance of the models in question. Since I wouldn't give GM a pass if they did the same thing, I won't do the same for Toyota.
Most vehicles that Toyota has produced over many model years have been reliable from start to finish. We've grown accustomed to it... this just serves to prove that a degree of caution is in order no matter what company you buy from.
Now Ford and GM are producing some very reliable vehicles and some Japanese companies are producing some more trouble-prone models. As buyers, we need to be smart enough to avoid prejudices... this is true irregardless of whether or not it plays into the hands of the pro-domestic crowd. If a Fusion or Malibu is better than a Camry, for example, why shouldn't people buy it? But if a Civic is better than a Cobalt, for example, people shouldn't reward GM's poorer design by purchasing it.
Wait for GM to build something that better suits you. You do your country no favors by rewarding mediocrity. I'm voting for our automakers' success, but success should, in my opinion, be based upon improvement.
28th Jan 2009, 13:12
"It's hilarious how the thousands of seriously defective Toyota engines has magically dropped to "20"."
It's even funnier if the opposite is true, wouldn't you say?
Let's face it...we're jousting at ghosts. We don't know if these figures are accurate; The 20 is Toyota's figure (for the 2007 Tundra), the "thousands" figure is based on other model years taken cumulatively and anecdotally. The truth may be somewhere in the middle. So let's stop arguing. OK?
28th Jan 2009, 15:52
00:10 Talk about grasping at straws...
#1. Everything you said was untrue and non-factual.
#2 Ford isn't rated higher than Toyota and never has been in any major publication. You may have found a single model that was (let me guess... the Ford Fusion), but overall, and it always has been and still is, Japanese automobiles are higher rated.
#3 The F-150 isn't rated higher than the Tundra, and if you care to mention about it being "truck of the year", please remember that the Tundra has been also.
#4 Import fans don't need to grasp at straws to prove the obvious superiority of Japanese automobiles, since we have the ratings and the proof to back it up.
#5 You may like Fords, and that's fine, but Toyota makes the better cars and trucks. Refer to a bunch of the earlier comments in which proof of this is repeatedly cited. Of course, if you actually recognized and accepted these facts, you'd be driving Toyota's, so I'm not holding my breath.
I can't wait to read the response to this, as usual. I can see it now..."fords are better, because I like 'em"...
29th Jan 2009, 11:27
"So Toyota only sold TWENTY V-6 6-speed Camrys in 2007-2008???"
The twenty were 5.7 liter engines in 07 Tundras. The problem in the Camry is a transmission issue primarily in the 07 6-speed auto.
Moreover that wasn't what he was saying. What he was saying was that, while the problem only affected 1/2 of one percent of ALL Camrys, the ones affected were only the ones with the 6 speed trans. So the real percentage may be more like 3%-4% of those models. That percentage may be high enough for Consumer Reports to flag the models with that transmission as unreliable compared to the average midsizer.
While that may be true, I wonder if there are other problems as well because I've read about owners who had to have the transmission reprogrammed because of an over-long delay in shifting.
29th Jan 2009, 12:49
"The 20 is Toyota's figure (for the 2007 Tundra)"
Gee, now how convincing is THAT?? TOYOTA's figure!! WOW!! I bet they really convinced the import fans with THAT ONE!!
I've always known that 99% of all the "it's better" hype came directly from import ads and nothing of a real-world nature. If 30 flawless domestics over a 30-year period doesn't convince import fans of the reliability of them, NOTHING ever will.
The odds of us getting 30 VERY GOOD domestic vehicles in that time and THREE ALL BAD imports is proof enough to last me a lifetime, even if the latest data showed otherwise (and it doesn't).
What is the statistical probability that 30 domestic vehicles from all three domestic makers would ALL be perfect while ALL THREE of our imports were lemons?? I'm eagerly waiting for some math wizard to run the odds on this, but something tells me it will never happen. It's like asking for frequency of repair records, It's not gonna happen!!
28th Jan 2009, 09:44
But their report was specifically for the Camry V6, 6 speed models. These are the top of the line Camry, and not exactly the biggest seller of the model, hence their production numbers are likely much lower than the other typical 4 cylinder and V6 5 speed automatic models. Thus it makes sense that a single trim of a model could be singled out and not recommended due to a flaw.
But the argument here is being blown out of proportion by the Import haters, whom point at this tiny selection of affected vehicles as indicating that Toyota's entire lineup is bad.