12th Feb 2009, 06:58
I own a Jeep Wrangler (very Patriotic vehicle) and a Saab.
Does this make me only half as Patriotic as a guy who owns a Ford Truck, but twice as Patriotic as a guy who drives a Camry? Or do I get bonus points because Saab is owned by GM?
Does anybody know the equation that would help figure this out?
12th Feb 2009, 16:57
So hopefully we are beyond labeling import/domestic and test thoroughly behind the wheel for our new 2009 full size pickups. If you are not in the market to buy, then printing any old thing is not a risk anyway. I say if you make the plunge, test and compare every single full size.
12th Feb 2009, 20:06
Most cars are targeted into more narrow demographic groups than one might think. The salesmen at car dealerships are trained to categorize people when they come in and steer them toward the vehicles they match up to. They aren't just being friendly when they ask if are married, have kids, where do you work, where did you go to school, did you watch the football game last night, etc.
You will notice you have been categorized sometimes if you keep insisting on looking at cars that are out of your target group. Some of the older salesmen have learned the demographic targeting is pretty accurate. They will get frustrated with you and say things that kind of sound like "will you stop looking at cars that eventually you will realize you will never buy and come look at something you might actually buy?"
A funny story I read concerning this is the Honda Element. It was targeted at adults age 20 to 30, but it didn't do as well as expected with them. But it turned out to be something of a hit with 50 year olds who see it as a great car for bringing home flowers and garden supplies. It is hard to get the marketing correct every time.
13th Feb 2009, 11:07
You exemplify the point. Again - who typically owns jet skis, boats and other toys they tow to the lake on weekends, and drive big honkin', typically US brand trucks? The same guys who drink Bud light, live in the burbs, are generally conservative, have zillions of kids, and shop at Wal-Mart. Sounds ugly, but it's the truth.
13th Feb 2009, 11:09
"Lastly the import vs. domestic argument is pointless."
Not to tens of thousands of Americans who have lost their jobs due to people who think "the import versus domestic argument is pointless".
People seem to think that buying a Toyota, Honda or Nissan is "patriotic" because there are a handful of (Japanese owned) factories in the U.S. employing a minute number of workers (at low wages with poor benefits). It is only "patriotic" if you are a citizen of Japan.
The U.S. auto industry is the backbone of our economy (and ALL prominent economists agree). To destroy it based on ad hype and myth is simply cutting YOUR OWN throat. Modern domestics have long ago surpassed ALL Japanese brands in terms of warranty, reliability and build quality. Do a bit of research on both economics AND vehicles before making such harmful statements. The F-150 is "Truck of the Year". The Tundra is history. At least we have that much to be thankful for.
13th Feb 2009, 14:35
"Modern domestics have long ago surpassed ALL Japanese brands in terms of warranty, reliability and build quality. Do a bit of research on both economics AND vehicles before making such harmful statements."
To the first point --- Domestic vehicles long ago surpassed ALL Japanese brands in terms of reliability, build quality and warranty. Thanks for the assertion. Here's another one. Bologna. Wrong. Incorrect. Reassertion doesn't serve to prove a point. Every study on that subject suggests that only NOW are American vehicles getting close to the average Japanese vehicle. Granted, you deny the outcomes of every large-scale study that doesn't support your preconception. But you should at least agree that GM's statement about how their quality and innovation had fallen below industry standards was a repudiation of your viewpoint.
Second point -- We should research economics and vehicles before making such harmful statements -- (that this argument is pointless), apparently. I've taken 5 economics classes -- with an emphasis on so called "free market" economics (not macro economics, though). I've read major publications on automobiles for years. It's sort of a hobby of mine. I just like good machinery. I've had a subscription to "Car and Driver" for years. I've also had subscriptions to "Automobile", "Consumer Reports", "Autoweek", and frequented various on-line sites with an automotive emphasis like "Edmunds", "About-cars", "Truedelta - I'm a member", "JD Powers" and "Inside Line Automotive News". Apart from that, I like to stop by all the local dealerships as new models are released because there's nothing like first-hand experience.
Anyway I'm probably not a part of the ignorant class into which you imagine those who disagree with you fall.
That aside, let me repeat -- This argument is pointless. Why? Because, while I agree with you that it's probably better to buy American than even a "Made in the USA" foreign vehicle, I think that the need by most on here to just assert a position without seeing a need to support it beyond their own experience, leads to argument with no point and no end.
It's the ARGUMENT that's pointless. The POINTS aren't pointless. It really DOES matter that folks are being laid off (according to every major newspaper). It MATTERS that most manufacturing has gone overseas (same source -- along with first hand experience at Wal-Mart, et all). It MATTERS that American auto manufacturing fell behind their counterparts (according to GM). It MATTERS that they are catching up (according to CR and JD Power). It MATTERS that tax dollars are being used to prop them (GM and Chrysler) up (according to the automakers, newspapers, congress). And finally it does matter that we consumers can help the situation (according to logic and the automakers).
Again, it's the argument that has become pointless -- and THAT only because of the MANNER in which some have chosen to argue. They don't support their points. They don't support them with appropriate research. They imagine that ridiculing and labeling someone else's perspective is going to achieve their ends. They aren't willing to change their minds. And when their arguments are as completely repudiated as an argument can be, they simply start all over and reassert their original point.
So... what's the point??
11th Feb 2009, 21:52
I was careful to point out that these are MITIGATING issues. I also said that I'll be buying American because I agree if you or anyone else says that these points aren't sufficient to compose a completely compelling argument. But completely compelling or not, they are real considerations that lead people to buy without feeling twinges of conscience about their choice. Thus they suffer no crisis of patriotism.
If a buyer has had multiple problems with their domestics, they may feel that trying something else is necessary. They may feel very little sympathy for those who did such a poor job of assembling their last car if it was troublesome.
Nevertheless, they will salute the flag, and even give their lives on a foreign field for their country while you and others refer to them as something less than "TRULY" patriotic... simply because they have the unmitigated temerity to own a Toyota.
While this example is fictitious, it would require some kind of unbelievable intellectual blindness to think that there haven't been many of our fallen who owned a foreign vehicle. In truth you would never see them as unpatriotic if you met them. You may see them as misguided in their vehicular choice, but not unpatriotic.
And THAT is exactly my point. There are many who, for one reason or another, love their country but drive a foreign vehicle. You shouldn't be so quick to label people whom, as I said, you've never met, whose experiences aren't yours, and whose decisions are thus different from yours.